ComplianceOnline
"Fraud Examiners: Get Deeply Into the White Collar Criminal Mind to Develop Outstanding Interviewing Skills" - This course is approved by NASBA (National Association of State Boards of Accountancy). Seminar attendees are eligible for 15.5 CPE credits upon completion of training.

Course Description:

Developing a solid fraud program has become an area of great interest for fraud examiners. However, before you can develop an excellent program or be as effective as possible during interviews, it is first critical to fully and completely understand exactly how the white collar criminal thinks. By getting completely into their heads, you will have a much clearer understanding as to:

  1. The different types of wrongdoers and criminals, and how to work with each type,
  2. Why so many fraud programs and other efforts have failed to be that effective in the past,
  3. How you need to think- and act- to increase the chances of catching criminals in the act, and
  4. How difficult it is- and why whistleblowing hotlines and similar measures are simply not enough- to get those who observe wrongdoing to speak up.

Case studies will be used to help you unravel exactly how the con artist thinks and acts. You will also learn how to refine any audit, risk and fraud programs you currently have to allow for the variety of criminal behavior out there.

Critical to any fraud program is the ability to gain outstanding and pertinent information from your clients on where they see vulnerabilities and not inherent risks, but risk and fraud schemes that could be occurring NOW. On the second day, Joan will teach you a proven step-by-step process for conducting excellent interviews that will bring compromises to the surface if and where they exist. Twenty years in development, this process has been devised by Joan and her senior consultants at JPA International, Inc., considered one of the pioneers in the world for developing influencing and interviewing skills for auditors, risk assessment procedures and fraud profiling. Please note that the interviewing method you will be taught is deliberately a step-by-step process for conducting typical fraud interviews that is not based on interrogation methods (though dozens of subtle tactics will be taught); but it does model the processes used by the FBI in the United States. It also includes many tips from other fraud examiners who are perceived as successful by their peers in gathering information effectively from their clients. Participants will be developing and conducting a mock interview as part of the training, and other exercises occur throughout. At the end of the two days, you will know how to read a person's "tells", what question you want to ask at that particular moment- and why, how to best record the information- and why. You will also learn how to make it much much safer and easier for others who see wrongdoing to speak up.

Seminar instructor Joan Pastor has:

  • Worked as the head facilitator for the National Security Agency.
  • Facilitated off-sites with all the intelligence agencies of the Dept. of Defense as well as representatives from the White House under the Clinton Administration.
  • Trained FBI professionals and police departments on white collar criminal and fraud interviewing skills.
  • Opening keynoter for the Association of Certified Fraud Examiners
  • A core commentator on webinars, teleseminars and television for the AICPA, BRISK, and talk shows.
  • Facilitated many off-sites with executive teams from a number of private and public companies in numerous countries.
  • Recently she was awarded the Gallery of Success, by her alma mater Temple University in Philadelphia, PA

Attendees will learn the tools for making it safe for people to open up and share deep information (information that you will be able to use to enhance many of your audits), for probing details to get to root causes, to get people to speak up about fraud they KNOW is going on (and you don't), and to have a lot of fun in the process!



Learning Objectives:

The key Learning's of the Criminal Mind part of the workshop are -

  1. Discover why it is so easy for the average person to commit fraud.
  2. Learn why "defense mechanisms" are critical for you to know- and to know how to work with
  3. A 5-part behavioral profile (developed by Joan and taught to elite intelligence forces), meaning a pattern of traits and behavior that differentiates the average white collar criminal from the particularly heinous.
  4. How to identify each group (there are about 6) of the worst criminals with a focus on the two most common types found in white collar crime.
  5. Company practices that encourage or discourage hard core criminals from picking your organization over another;
  6. How much other damage these types of people can do in an organization that is not necessarily illegal, but still ends up being extremely costly to the organization in terms of money, productivity, reputation risk, and low workplace morale;
  7. How all this applies to multinational, global organizations (and what to do about it)
  8. Specific things internal auditors and fraud examiners can look for to identify red flags;
  9. How to gain the "buy-in" of your Board, executive and management teams to the ROI on developing an ethically-based organizational culture

The key Learning’s of interviewing skills part of the workshop are -

  • Learn how to help people feel safe enough to open up even before the interview begins
  • Learn the stages of an excellent interview process
  • Understand all the reasons interviewing people can be difficult and what to do to prevent or mitigate each problem
  • Learn how to ask questions in specific ways to increase the amount and quality of information you receive
  • Learn how to handle people who go off the subject, overly quiet or talkative people, and difficult emotions that can come up in yourself and others
  • Learn how to take notes in such a way that actually helps people to open up and share more information
  • Learn a proven interview process that takes you away from a checklist approach but still covers all the areas you need
  • Learn a simple but powerful critical skill for determining if a person may be straying from the truth
  • Learn creative and important ways to set up the interview and the environment to increase rapport and open discussion
  • Learn an abundance of subtle cues for encouraging people to open up and give the information you need
  • Learn how to close the interview properly


Who will Benefit:

  • Internal and external audit professionals
  • Internal control professionals
  • Finance and accounting management
  • Compliance professionals
  • Loss prevention and risk specialists
  • Security professionals
  • Fraud examiners
  • Procurement/purchasing and Payables Specialists


Topic Background:

Though senior executives have figured prominently in recent fraud cases, people at all levels and of all backgrounds and professions are capable of committing fraud. Understanding the psychological forces behind fraudulent behavior is critical to detecting, preventing and dealing with fraud.

One of the least discussed reasons behind unethical behavior is related to a small group of people who, with the right combination of inner traits and smarts, can cause the most damage to an organization. It is this small (estimated 5-7%) group who can be the deadliest killers of all to your company, and almost no amount of audit rigor or financial analysis is going to smoke them out. It is this group that is behind most of the larger (and costliest) fraudulent crimes. In this course, the distinction between these two groups of criminals will be made clear, with suggestions and discussions on what can be done about it in your organization.

Joan Pastor, PhD, a noted clinical and industrial-organizational psychologist, first began studying this phenomenon when she saw a bright man single-handedly destroy a small (but highly successful) brokerage firm she was consulting with 20 years ago. She continued to observe this phenomenon in various forms over the years. By bringing both clinical and business research together, she has identified a syndrome, or a pattern of traits and behavior that explain these type of people, how to identify them, and external conditions in a company that encourage these people to make their plays. As a Certified Speaking Professional, Joan delivers her programs with humor, timely references, original research and implementation experience at many major clients. She has over two decades of speaking, coaching, consulting and training experience.




We are registered with and adhere to the Statement on Standards for Continuing Professional Education programs of the National Registry of CPE Sponsors. Our registration number is 109066. Please check with the governing body of your license and state for specific CPE requirements. Grievances may be forwarded to the company at Ph: 650 620 3961; email: cpe@complianceonline.com. Grievances may also be forwarded to the National Registry of CPE Sponsors-NASBA, 150 Fourth Avenue North, Suite 700, Nashville, TN 37219-2417, 615-880-4200, www.nasba.org, e-mail cpe@nasba.org.





Course Outline:

Day One (8:30 AM – 4:30 PM) Day Two (8:30 AM – 4:30 PM)
  • Registration Process: 8:30 AM - 9:00 AM
  • Session Start: 9:00 AM
  • Introduction
    • The Psychology of Fraud: A critical tool for senior level managers
    • How psychologists look at and work with fraud and why this is important to you
    • Why you haven’t heard about this before
  • How and why normal people commit fraud
    • Are most people already ethical?
    • The 5 proven traits for mentally healthy (and successful) employees
  • The research on deception and lying
    • The attribution bias and how it works in organizations
    • Other human traits that make us all vulnerable
  • The 5-7%: A whole different world of people
    • The “Syntonic Syndrome”: a general definition
    • Ego-Syntonic people and the lack of accountability
    • True stories
  • The Syntonic Syndrome: 5 Key Characteristics and Behaviors
    • Accountability
    • Personality Disorder
    • IQ
    • Differential treatment to people
    • Control over decision-making or weak processes
    • An optional sixth: an addiction
  • Personality Disorders: Six types and two “clusters”
    • Which ones especially connected to fraud and white-collar crime?
    • Special focus on one cluster
    • True stories
    • Exercise
  • IQ
    • Makes all the difference in white collar crime
    • Tied to success rate of white collar crimes
  • Differential treatment of people
    • Signs to look for and what to do about it
      • There are a lot of signs!
        • The creation of collusion
      • Collusion and its connection to fraud
  • Control over decision-making processes and weak processes
    • Going after specific positions in organization tied to certain processes
    • The syntonic person’s special ability to deceive through high creativity
  • Organizational situations that encourage white collar crime
    • Cowboy organizational culture vs. other types of organizational cultures
      • Laissez-faire management style
      • Overly controlled bureaucratic cultures
    • People interaction patterns in departments that indicate fraud
    • Management activities that unknowingly lay open opportunities for fraud
    • Specific functions and common organizational activities that almost always lead to wrongdoing
      • Performance reward systems
      • Inefficient business, financial and organizational systems
      • The special case of customer service policies and procedures
    • How auditors and fraud examiners unintentionally help create fraud!
    • And specfic steps to take to stop it
  • Special factors: Public vs. Private sector, Challenges of Rural and Small Town locations,Employees of Not for Profits, etc.

  • The Hard Core Criminal and Whistle blowing practices
    • The bad news about whistleblowing procedures and reporting hardcore criminals people
    • What really makes a person blow the whistle?
  • What can be done? What can be done? What can be done?
    • What can be done at the individual and organizational levels?
    • Brainstorming and Action Plans
  • Interviewing Skills
    • Explain objectives
    • Participant involvement
    • What information do you need?
    • Research on eye-witness accounts
    • Why interviewing skills are the most powerful way to uncover wrongdoing, or reinforce a clean slate
  • The Collaborative Approach to Interviewing
    • The three types of interviewing approaches
    • The purpose of interviews: Knowing your objectives
    • Collaborative Interviewing: What Is it and how It enhances even fraud interviewing
    • Difficulties and opportunities with conciliatory and competitive approaches
  • Why avoid Interrogation and Interrogation Techniques except at special moments
    • The research on interrogation programs: It’s not pretty
    • How unwarranted interrogation techniques reduce effectiveness
    • When you do need to interrogate…
  • The Two Most Effective Tools for Interviewing People
    • Understanding, experiencing and maintaining objectivity
    • The “Story” listening exercise as a way to develop the listening required for good interviews
    • The WIIFM principle- how to gain buy-in to being interviewed- an exercise
    • Handling passive resistance right up front
  • Six Steps of the Collaborative Interviewing Process
    • Preparation/planning
    • Initial meeting
    • Information gathering
    • Information clarification
    • Closing/ending
    • Documenting/evaluation
  • Planning
    • Aiming the interview: getting clear on results you want
    • Developing questions (see below)
    • How to use a checklist effectively, if at all
    • Critical issues in logistics that really make a difference
      • Tables and chairs positioning
      • Seating positioning
      • Conference room usages that are strategically used to increase information capture
      • Confidentiality issues
    • How to develop your ideas and strategy before the interview
    • Other do's and don'ts
  • The Initial Meeting (Opening the Interview)
    • Establishing goals and objectives
    • Dress and appearance
    • Note-taking vs. audio taping: which to use, when to use, and how?
      • Numerous tips and techniques for taking notes properly
      • How to make the interviewee feel completely comfortable with you taking notes
      • A phenomenal technique to use when you hate taking notes
    • Establishing your “interviewee baseline”
      • Establishing objectivity, neutrality, and expectations
    • How to position oneself (physical arrangement)
    • Other do's and don'ts
  • Information Gathering
    • How to start the interview in a powerful way
    • How you conduct the interview is directly related to the quality of information
    • He step by step process for obtaining the best information: Spiraling
      • Subtle tactics to facilitate memory retrieval in interviewing
      • Chunking
      • Backwards to forwards
      • When to use each
    • The critical art and science of using of specific types of questions
    • How to conduct the Q&A
      • Knowing the 8 categories of questions, which categories to use and which to avoid
      • Making critical distinctions: knowing when to use a “Why,” “What,” or “How” question, and what specific response you can expect each time
      • Secret ways to use the checklist without actually using a checklist approach
    • A phenomenal technique to use when you want more meat
  • Information Clarification
    • Structuring Techniques to gather more detailed, accurate information
      • Bridging and transitioning topics
      • The Powerful Use of Open vs. Closed Questions
      • Reframing
    • What to do when they know more than you regarding the situation
    • Wording and tone of voice
    • Do’s and don’ts if and when you suspect they are lying
  • How to Read Your Interviewee and How to be Read (discussed throughout BOTH days). Numerous areas include:
    • Body language
    • Vocals
      • Facial Expressions
      • Posture
      • Touching
      • Eyes
    • Vocals
      • Why vocals are more powerful than body language in our culture
      • Voice and Words
      • Using vocals to determine deception cues
      • Hundreds of tips and suggestions
    • Cultural differences in body, voice and words – as time permits and based on class needs
      • When it really is a cultural difference vs. using cultural differences as a manipulation
  • Handling Resistant Individuals during Interviews
    • Your experiences
    • How to Stay Focused on the situation, not the personality of the person
    • When the person appears stubborn to you
      • Stubborn/resistant vs. manipulative: a big difference
      • The “Defusion” process- how to calm down upset people on the spot

  • Giving Positive Feedback throughout the Interview- WHY?
    • Using the DEE method for giving positive feedback
    • Why positive feedback is so critical to successful interviews
  • Ending the Interview
    • The final summary
    • The one sentence you always say at the end of the interview
    • What to do if you have to come back to interview again
    • Meeting check?
  • What to do After the Interview
    • Documenting and evaluating the interview
    • Office policy on note-taking, audiotaping, etc.
    • What to do with your notes, charts, outlines after the interview
    • Following up after the interview
    • When testing or further information gathering after the interview leads to suspicion
  • Five additional Techniques Forensic Investigators use that you will never have known about
  • Close
    • Practice, practice and practice throughout
    • Action Plans- strengths and challenge areas to work on




Meet Your Instructor

Joan Pastor, Ph.D.
President, JPA International, Inc.

Joan Pastor, Ph.D., president of JPA International, Inc. is a licensed organizational and clinical psychologist who provides keynote, training and consultation services to numerous national and international organizations and associations. Ms. Pastor is a certified speaking professional (CSP), a certified mediator, and has an extensive coaching practice. She is well-known for her keynotes and work in assisting organizations in developing their vision, plus the strategy and processes to achieve it.

She has been working with finance, risk, security (including intelligence) & audit professionals since 1986 and has made pioneering contributions to these professions in risk assessments; all areas related to the “People or Soft Skills”; integrating finance, incorporating risk and fraud into corporate objectives and strategy; business process documentation; and in working with executive management , boards, and audit committees.

She has uncovered numerous embezzlement and other fraudulent schemes over the years in her own work and with audit, risk and finance colleagues. She has been named Outstanding Young Woman of the Year, awarded the U.S. Army Customer Service Award, and was awarded the National Leadership Award from the U.S. Business Advisory Council in both 2003 and 2006.

Seminar Instructor Joan Pastor has:

  • Worked as the head facilitator for the National Security Agency.
  • Facilitated off-sites with all the intelligence agencies of the Dept. of Defense as well as representatives from the White House under the Clinton Administration.
  • Trained FBI professionals and police departments on white collar criminal and fraud interviewing skills.
  • Opening keynoter for the Association of Certified Fraud Examiners
  • A core commentator on webinars, teleseminars and television for the AICPA, BRISK, and talk shows.
  • Facilitated many off-sites with executive teams from a number of private and public companies in numerous countries.
  • Recently she was awarded the Gallery of Success, by her alma mater Temple University in Philadelphia, PA.




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